tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post262793421814684452..comments2022-03-24T16:11:50.124-04:00Comments on The Man From Porlock: Fringe CharactersCraighttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01450775188328918558noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-41400158469760463032008-01-25T11:12:00.000-05:002008-01-25T11:12:00.000-05:00Good examples, Nelson. I will say that in Five Eas...Good examples, Nelson. I will say that in <I>Five Easy Pieces</I>, at least the waitress comes across as a formidable adversary (unlike the preppy chumps in <I>Good Will Hunting</I>, who never stand a chance). I'm ashamed to say I've never seen the entire movie, just really the clip of the restaurant scene, but you've put it back on my list.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01450775188328918558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-36041269542572309102008-01-24T19:54:00.000-05:002008-01-24T19:54:00.000-05:00A very thoughtful post on what I guess we can now ...A very thoughtful post on what I guess we can now officially agree to call "cheapshot filmmaking." Two more examples:<BR/><BR/>- Matt Damon's "How do you like them apples?" moment in GOOD WILL HUNTING. Yes, our hero is a sensitive misunderstood-genius working-class kid, and the target of this withering remark is a rich arrogant frat boy. Whatever. While other people in the theater pumped their fists at this scene, I gave it the finger.<BR/><BR/>- Jack Nicholson and his "I want you to hold it between your legs" line to the waitress in FIVE EASY PIECES. A famous moment, of course, due to the sharpness of the dialogue and Nicholson's brilliant delivery, but a cheap-shot, get-the-audience-to-say-"fuck-yeah!" moment nevertheless. It's the scene everyone always talks about, when instead they should be talking about Nicholson's monologue to his mute, paralyzed father, which is truly a scene for the ages.Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17589646668908727876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-3257103276891631612008-01-21T21:01:00.000-05:002008-01-21T21:01:00.000-05:00Thanks very much, Alex. Your comment on "cheapshot...Thanks very much, Alex. Your comment on "cheapshot filmmaking" is interesting and reminds me of discussions that Matt and others have had on that topic, insofar as who qualifies and who doesn't. I don't know where you stand on the Coen Bros, but in <I>No Country for Old Men</I>, at least, I had the sense that all those supporting characters had lives that extended beyond the frame. Because of this, I didn't feel like they were being condescending or disrespectful or other terms commonly used against them.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01450775188328918558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-56853770803711403412008-01-21T19:09:00.000-05:002008-01-21T19:09:00.000-05:00I love this post, because one of the things I appr...I love this post, because one of the things I appreciated very much about "Knocked Up" was the treatment of the fringe characters that you mentioned. The bouncer scene and the scene with the doctor were perfect examples of a comedic worldview that is expansive, rather than what I call "cheapshot filmmaking". Cheapshot filmmaking has ruined (along with other things) movies as diverse as "Die Hard", "Pretty Woman" and "The Squid and the Whale", to name a few.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-87394393106416419952008-01-21T18:23:00.000-05:002008-01-21T18:23:00.000-05:00Great observations from everyone.Sometimes I cut a...Great observations from everyone.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I cut a movie a little slack on this issue; it can depend on the genre (such as satire), the context of the scene, or my mood. The climax of the first <I>Crocodile Dundee</I> features the central couple declaring their love for each other from across a crowded subway station, with several passers-by in between relaying the words of affection back and forth, followed by hoisting them over their shoulders and applauding the climactic clench. The entire movie is charming though, so I give the scene a pass.<BR/><BR/>Having said that, I think it's even funnier when two characters get together <I>despite</I> the chorus of disapproval from those around them. (Unfortunately can't think of an example offhand, but I'm sure there are a few....)<BR/><BR/>Another point I wanted to restate is that I think movies are more effective, and are less likely to resort to the kinds of tactics that all of you mentioned, when there's a sense that even the most minor characters have lives beyond the frame. Sometimes it's the work of the actor that establishes this (Bill Macy and Philip Seymour Hoffman did this regularly when they were still bit players for the likes of David Mamet and P.T. Anderson), but it seems to help to have people behind the camera with both a broad worldview and an attention to detail. In <I>Knocked Up</I>, with actors like Craig Robinson and Ken Jeong, and writer-directors like Apatow, you have the best of everything.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01450775188328918558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-78477677546723469222008-01-21T14:36:00.000-05:002008-01-21T14:36:00.000-05:00I wish I had remembered that moment Jim cites in K...I wish I had remembered that moment Jim cites in <I>Knocked Up,</I> because it's a great example of a movie side-stepping a golden opportunity to get the audience's blood up in sure-fire fashion. Shirley Maclaine screaming at the nurses in the hospital in <I>Terms of Endearment</I> is, for me, the nadir of scenes like these, and precisely the cheap shot Apatow could have used to weaken his movie.<BR/><BR/>Thanks, Craig, for your excellent treatment of this idea. And Matt, nothing like the Mailer touch to sum it all up, eh? The people I end up arguing with about these kinds of moments seem way too willing to submit to the adrenaline charge the movie seems to offer by such cheap tactics. "Well, the movie made me cry/cheer/get angry, so it must be good!" Extend that to the tendencies of the general populace to be manipulated by politicians, special interest groups, the media, whatever, and that's a frightening thing to consider.Dennis Cozzaliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01954848938471883431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-29000015098453111802008-01-20T16:07:00.000-05:002008-01-20T16:07:00.000-05:00Nice job, Craig. I posted an extended comment abo...Nice job, Craig. I posted an extended comment about the piece at <A HREF="http://mattzollerseitz.blogspot.com/2008/01/links-for-day-january-19th-2008.html" REL="nofollow">The House</A>, where your piece was a Link of the Day. You've cogently summarized a rant I've been inflicting on friends and family for -- geez, probably about 20 years now. <BR/><BR/>The short version: the continued popularity of touches like the ones you cite in this piece confirm Norman Mailer's belief in America's latent potential for fascism.Matt Zoller Seitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16921028537989131859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-62534269886512813642008-01-20T12:43:00.000-05:002008-01-20T12:43:00.000-05:00Thanks for continuing the discussion, Simon. Coinc...Thanks for continuing the discussion, Simon. Coincidentally, I had commented on your post not long before you responded to mine.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01450775188328918558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-5152551674102948642008-01-20T11:11:00.000-05:002008-01-20T11:11:00.000-05:00Thanks for the mention. Getting back to Juno for a...Thanks for the mention. Getting back to <I>Juno</I> for a moment - I have posted some further thoughts on my exchange with Dennis Cozzalio and on bloggers' reaction to Juno in general at Mostly Movies. <BR/><BR/>http://crowesmostlymovies.blogspot.com/2008/01/another-word-on-juno.htmlSimon Crowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16558004166061051312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-69015873767300417052008-01-19T21:06:00.000-05:002008-01-19T21:06:00.000-05:00Thanks, Jim, for expanding on that scene, illustra...Thanks, Jim, for expanding on that scene, illustrating even further how it plays out against expectations. Like I said in my post, one of the things I love about Apatow is his generosity towards these seemingly minor characters. If I were an actor I'd love to work for him -- even the bit players get their moments.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01450775188328918558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3211112229982829419.post-67984795197575826312008-01-19T17:30:00.000-05:002008-01-19T17:30:00.000-05:00Terrific post, Craig. You and Dennis are really o...Terrific post, Craig. You and Dennis are really onto something. The labor scene in "Knocked Up" is also a key moment for Seth Rogen's character. In the previous scene, on the phone, he was cussing out the doctor who had abandoned them for a bar mitzvah in San Francisco. You expect him to go ballistic with this doctor when they step out into the hallway. And he doesn't. He approaches him as a human being because that's the best way to help get Alison what she needs at that moment. She's relying on him, and he comes through by controlling his temper and connecting with the doctor on a reasonable, human level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com